Episode 12: Language, Mathematics and Pictures w/ Kitty Yeung
The BOM
The BOM

Episode 12 · 2 months ago

Episode 12: Language, Mathematics and Pictures w/ Kitty Yeung

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Today we discuss Kitty’s extensive background in education, her work at Microsoft, her thoughts on STEAM and why it’s so important to integrate art into tech, and how she hopes to create a more sustainable future through teaching, designing, and doing lots and lots of art.

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The BOM is a Supplyframe podcast hosted by Majenta Strongheart, written, produced, and edited by Frank Driscoll and co-edited by Daniel Ferera. Executive producers are Ryan Tillotson and Tyler Nielsen. Theme music is by Ana Hogben, with show art by Thomas Schneider. Special thanks to Giovanni Salinas, Bruce Dominguez, Thomas Woodward, Jin Kumar, Jordon Clark, Matt Gunn, the entire Supplyframe Team, and you, our wonderful listeners.

Drawing is something that I always love doing since I was a child, and I actually found that it's a way for me to testify I understand anything, so I'll try to conceptualize and visualize scientific ideas through drawings. For someone to understand something, we have to be able to translate words or translate equations with words and visualize the words with drawings and condense and explain the drawings with equations, so the three things go around and compliment each other. If I cannot draw something, that means I don't understand it. Welcome back to the bomb. My guest this week is Dr Kitty Young, a physicist, engineer, Tex stilist, artist and former senior program manager of quantum computing and Microsoft. She is currently Microsoft's founder of fashion incubation. Dr Young is constantly pushing the boundaries between art and science to discover how they connect, having worked across the latest technologies, including developing computational textiles, solar powering, three D printing, micro controllers, edge computing and wearables. Dr Young combines her love of art with her experiences and science to push the bounds of fashion. She received her PhD and Applied Physics at Harvard University and Masters and Natural Sciences from the University of Cambridge. Art By physicist is Kitty's sustainable tech fashion brand dedicated to the integration of science, engineering, design and art. The brand's mission is to promote an intellectual representation of women and support steam education and environmental protection through donations and ethical and sustainable production. Today we discussed Kitty's extensive background and education, her work at Microsoft, her thoughts on steam and why it's so important to integrate art into tech, and how she hopes to create a more sustainable future through teaching, designing and doing lots and lots of art. Let's dive in. Welcome, Dr Kitty Young. I'm so excited to have you joining us on the bomb today. Thank you for having me. It's been so long since we've caught up. I was trying to remember where we first met. Was it at maker fair in San Francisco or was it at Super Con? I think it's makeup fair. You were doing some video interviews, always right, and you're always one of our amazing guests, talking about everything from wearables to quantum computing to your work at Microsoft. So I'm really excited to dive into all of that can you tell us about your background Um and how you got to where you are today at Microsoft? Sure. Yeah, I have a physics background, so I'm trained professionally as a physicist. I did my Undergrad at masters in University of Cambridge and then I went to Harvard to do my PhD in applied physics. So very fundament who work, but also doing a lot of applications of quantum physics. So when I graduated I went to Intel to do silicon photonics and transition to Microsoft through actually several different roles in betway. But then I was doing quantum quantum computing before I started my own startup within the company and Microsoft. The startup that you're talking about. That separate than your experience at Microsoft Garage. Right, right. Yeah, the garage was a very unique fun experience. I joined Microsoft through that. I was managing the bay area garage, is an innovation program uh, and it runs the company's largest, actually is the world's largest private Hag Cathon, and it helps employees come together to hang new ideas, whatever they want to work on, even independent from their day job, and they can form their own team and build their new ideas into reality. So I was managing the bay area there for this program Uh and there is really nice also maker garage. So the garage is our program but we also have um maker spaces. So it's really fun for UH employees to come hack on something, either digitally or come to the space to make something physical. Yeah, I remember we got to visit that space a couple of years ago and it's super inspiring to see everything you all were working on. And how many participants did you have in that Hackathon that you mentioned? Wow, every year expense. So I think last year was about seventy five thousand people like that. Yeah, the garage team has done such a great job. Yeah, really appreciate the team for...

...having a program like this for the company and I think it's really awesome that more and more companies are realizing, you know, the positive impact that something like this can have, an initiative where you're bringing different teams together, really pushing interdisciplinary kind of collaboration and thinking outside of, you know, the main everyday nine to five kind of work that everyone's doing. But I'd love to hear what you think. You know this adds to people's experience on the job. Is a very healthy culture that such programs campering to a big co operation is not just about Uh Managero structure, but it is also uh supporting anyone, no matter where you are in the company, to pursue your causes, your missions, your passion, and is supporting a person as a whole instead of looking at someone just as a set of skills and put them in the box. And I think immorten workspaces. It no longer holds. Uh, you are a platform for your employees and people should feel happy that they are pursuing something meaningful in their work space. Yeah, that's beautifully put put. I hope that Um, you know, more and more people can have that in their work environment because it can make such a difference on your own yeah, and your own life work balance and mental health and all of that. So are kind of a main theme for Um the last few episodes has been education within design and technology. So I'm going to ask you a few questions about you know, your educational background, but also you've done so much to kind of give back to the open source hardware community and UM design and technology fields in providing really accessible education yourself and doing tutorials, in participating in initiatives like hackety university where you taught an introduction to quantum computing, and I'd love to hear sort of how you feel, you know, about traditional systems of education versus these more distributed accessible, you know, Youtube, opportunities to learn through youtube and other other platforms. You know. What do you think about that balance, or have you had any pivotal moments you feel like in your more traditional educational background that really allowed you to excel Um within you know, your your combining of science and art. Yeah, it's an interesting question. I definitely benefited from both. Uh. So the traditional, you call traditional, is the kind of the school taught and have a very clear structure of degrees. So I definitely received one of the best top education in terms of physics. So, Um, that was also my goal. Uh. I wanted to be a physicist as uh, since I was a child. So I pursued to receive the best education as I could get. Later on, especially after you start working, there's no real structure anymore, and it really is. It really is dependent on self, teaching self, learning and through that experience, uh, I actually started learning about quantum computing myself by reading books and watching videos and also trying out our open source exercises. So that is self education and I think everyone who's working needs to do that. Technology and new ideas developed so fast we can't rely on our background forever and I think the very interesting about being in the workforce at this era, so being in the information age, is that people who maybe twenty or thirty years older than you are actually learning the same things and driving the same industries. We can't rely on legacy education and background anymore. We need to keep on learning, keep on m looking at where the industries and the society is going and not falling behind. So that's what also motivated me too, to both use my my background as well as learning new things and then producing education materials to teach others who may have a similar tendency that they may be already working in a different industry, but then defying, for example, quant computing very interesting...

...than they really need entry points. So I was kind of providing the entry points. How could they you was a very accessible uh for community type of quantum computing learning materials. I was giving this lectures and workshops and using my comics drawings to teach the concepts, and I also developed the Microsoft Open source uh learning materials are learning websites and the MS learn modules, so people can access it anywhere in the world through the Internet and try out the hands hall exercises and learned that way. So awesome. You really just do so much. I'm always so impressed. Um, I love the I think it's really important. The point that you made about kind of staying, you know, staying current with the latest technology is just this, in a way, never ending, um opportunity to learn more and to be driven to keep up right. Um, like you said, it's kind of Nice in a way that it levels out, uh, you know, New People in the industry to people that have been there for decades. I know G and I always talk about how many three d modeling programs are we gonna learn by the you know, throughout our career? I think he's already on like three or four. I'm not as quick to pick up the new ones, but it's something I'm working on. Um, but it's a it's a constant challenge and I like the your perspective on you know, it's an opportunity. It doesn't have to be something that we feel bogged down by, but how you know, it keeps you fresh and creative and and learning, Um, you know, challenging yourself and pushing yourself to learn new technologies and and stay on the you know, on the latest for Um, be prepared to be more innovative in our fields. Um. I love what you brought up about using comic strips to help teach your condom computing courses. Is that some thing you found, uh, you know, how have you found that to be useful or successful, like, as far as thinking about different learning styles and how you can take all of your vast skill sets to make something more accessible? Was that something you prototyped? Um, you know, along the way, or when did you discover that that was how you wanted to teach this course or teach quantum computing? Mm Hmm, yeah, so drawing is something that I always love doing since I was a child, and I actually found that it's a way for me to testify I understand anything. So I try to conceptualize and visualize scientific ideas through drawings. If I cannot draw something, that means I don't understand it. So it's actually a method that I developed when I was studying in my Undergrad and I noticed that for someone to understand something, we have to be able to translate words or translate equations with words and visualize the words with drawings and condense and explain the drawings with equations, so the three things go around and compliment each other. If there's anything that I can't do with any one of these, then it really means I don't totally understand it. So I developed this method of learning and use drawing to express what I understand. And I noticed that for learning, visualization is really, really important, and for something like quantum computing is always something hard to visualize for people because it's looking at the microscopic, tiny words that we don't see in everyday life, even though everything we see um our manifestation of those microscopic worlds. So we have to have a better way to explain these things people don't necessary experience every day, they do not realize that they experienced every day. So I started just drawing each concept out on a square page to really contents, honing into the one thing that I really want to communicate, and I started publishing this online. Every week, every Sunday, every weekend, I was stroying one or two pieces and then it started to accumulate as a whole series of education materials and this opportunity was Haday you just came up. Around the same time. I remember receiving an email from Sophie and she was looking for Hack Day you lectures. So I thought on computing would be something really interesting for people, especially that was around the time uh Kobe started. Everyone was stuck...

...at home and looking to learn new things and uh, there was also a lot of hype about common computing, so I really wanted to mystified it. Um, it's interesting that people, when they see drawings, they don't feel intimidated anymore. They may think, Oh, it's drawing cartoons of our children, but everybody really, including adults, they like drawings. So I noticed a lot of people, you adults, started buying my book for themselves as well as for their children, because everyone, at different stages of their life, can gain something out of the gist of science. Yes, totally. Drawing is, you know, like a universal language. I think it's kind of timeless, ageless, and I absolutely agree that it can help demystify and make something so much more approachable. So I think that's so awesome that that was the strategy you you implemented for this and uh just so the audience can have the opportunity to check out your work. Do you still have those comics up online somewhere? Yes, I do. So how could they you? UH, the link to the introduction to quantum computing, to comics, is one place you can find. Or you can go to my website, which is art by physicist Katie Young Dot com, and I have all of my projects. They're including the comics. So you can find where to buy the book as well. Perfect. And So, speaking of all your other projects, we want to get into art by physicists, which is your latest kind of endeavor. How long have you been doing art by physicists? I feel like you launched it maybe a year ago, am I? Yeah, I launch a whole bunch of designs tech fashion last year through kickstarter, but I started developing the brand for quite a few years, I think. UH, yeah, I remember trying on a piece. That's super comment. That's right. Yeah, that was yeah, I think it was two thousand nineteen. I had a whole set of designs launched and I was actually developing these wearable tech since twenty sixteen. That was just for fun and tinkering, but then I started getting requests from people they want to buy myself and I just got so curious, like how, how do I even manufacture something that I just made my head? So I guess that was the challenge. Going from one to ten, two hundreds to thousands. Design for manufacturers a whole different ball game. Yeah, exactly. That's what the bomb is about, right. So you have to have the build of materials, you have to have the tech, pack everything, you need to communicate with the manufacturers. A lot of your pieces are combining uh, wearable technology integrating them into your fashion designs. Right, and can you tell us a little bit more about what this might include? I know you know. Sometimes it includes LEDs. Are Different kinds of UM lighting technology. What other kind of sensors or tech are you using in your pieces? Yeah, I tend to use whatever available, whatever is ready in terms of embedding into clothing to make designer pieces. Uh. So lighting is one type. I have designs that have custom made flexible L E D s to show your constellations. That's UH embedded into the fabric that I actually hand drew the constellations for and theyre L E D s underneath that shine through. That looks like your unique birthday constellations and I also have solar powered dresses that can charge your film or any five votes electronics you can go out with that solar power. The film is thin and laminated onto fabric, so it's really unique uh design that actually fits with the dress is a lotus flower shape, and I also have heated coats uh that have the flexible heating paths embedded in the fabrics. So all of these things are now developed to be imbatable with textile and all of the fabrics have my paintings on them. So the technologies are uniquely designed to fit the visual and the fabrics as well.

So I'm actually just launching a kickstarter is running right now for my design. This is on the month production. When you ask about the development that I had in the past, I really came to this realization and deployment of on demand mass customization, which is the most sustainable way to run a fashion brand and do creative work. Otherwise one has to create a large inventory and all these brands are making things before they are even sold and that's actually generating a lot of ways and pollution in the world. So my whole process is all digital. So all the paintings are digital, so they can be printed onto any fabrics. That's also printed on demand and I own me go to production ones the pre order has a certain quantity that I need to fulfill. So it turns the production process around from the backward passive making, then seal to the design salve, then make model. I love that you're thinking about sustainability and I'm not surprised that you're you're innovating in this industry, because that's what you do best and I know that you've spoken a little bit about how you feel. You know the the fashion industry is often kind of overlo overlooked by engineers or by the engineering discipline, and you're really trying to, you know, challenge the status quo within the fashion industry. What else have been besides kind of what you've learned about this Um, this process for manufacturing? What are some other ways you feel like you're really trying to push the fashion industry and try to integrate more innovation and kind of technological thinking into what you're doing? Yeah, you mentioned earlier three D programs for fashion. We actually now have software that can allow us to do to D patning and three simulation all together totally digitally, so you don't have to make samples and do all the back and forth corrections manually physically anymore. You can do all these very quick updates and rapid prototyping within the software. So that's the process I'm adopting already. For for art by physicists, all of the pieces have their digital twin. Uh. The patterns are all simulated before it is sent to be printed and cut and so on. And this can also allow me to do things like food customization. So people actually for the kickstarter, people send me there their measurements and I can generate the art are directly in three D for them and custom fit the fabric to their unique body shapes. It is no longer about sizing. People don't have to fit their body into certain sizes. Is the garments are created to fit their different body shapes. And it also allows me to do things like custom prints. So these cats, for example, the center one is printed by is painted by my friend Judy Waan. That's her cat, mail maial, but I'm using AI style transfer tools to switch the face off the cats in the center put other people's cats on here too. I also I still have to do some some painting, but it really speed up the process. I can generally lots of new cats for the the fashion design by using AI tools, doing style transfer and do digital painting. So all these are possible now. So so cool to see all of that kind of come together into these pieces. And you mentioned the use of digital twin more in fashion, and I've definitely seen this in some of the Um, you know, kind of designer fashion shows that are happening, especially during uh lockdown, when people were having to come up with new kind of, you know, virtual programming and ways to engage their audiences um and keep doing fashion shows even when they couldn't be doing them in person. We saw a lot more, I feel like, you know, high fidelity digital renderings of fabrics, of garments, and figuring out new ways to showcase these pieces in kind of a virtual arena. What do you see as the future for how this can be integrated into like shopping experiences you mentioned? Obviously this makes um custom sizing way more accessible and affordable, which is awesome. What are the ways do you see this influencing kind of the future of Um fashion, consumerism and the ways that fashion companies engage with their custom m m yeah,...

...we have seen a shift for consumers wanting to do online shopping more and more and, especially with a hybrid kind of world and events, uh, the online presence are becoming more and more important. So people in the future will be able to shop not just by looking at the item but also try it on, which is so important, because I can't imagine, like, I can't buy pants that I can't try on because for me, yeah, I'm glad you're talking about that. Yeah, so I think the process that I was mentioning for art by physicists should be adopted by everybody. Um, because in a way, my my independent fashion brand is has figured out the sustainable, creative way to kind of a small a small scale, what it could be like for a brand to generate clothing for unique customers, and imagine this can be scaled to the entire industry. No brand needs to create any waste overproduced imagery anymore. People can order something try on virtually or go to a physical store get, Um, get their body scan whatever way that it's available to allow digital fashion to be generated, uh, to fit the person and directly sent to manufacturing and get it made quickly. Right now, I think the hurdle is also that if you want to tailor get something, Taylor may take months to do. But with the digital processes, if manufacturers start to adopt the latest technologies and tools and upgrade their factories, making more automated, more ready to make, that can really shift the industry. What do you think might be the turning point for that? I mean, I doubt that it will all, of course, happen in a day. That's not usually how these things happen. But as far as do you think it will come more from a push from the customers or more from a need from the manufacturers to shift to these new technologies because they're losing, you know, too much money or waste or that sort of thing? Where do you where do you see that happening to really move the needle so that more people adopt more sustainable and kind of circular system for their their work? Yeah, this is a very big question to me. As a physicist, I sometimes think about this like a phase transition for a material. So you shift from a phase is, that is, liquid to gas or from solid to liquid. You need several conditions to play together. These are a singular thing. You have to reach a certain temperature. The pressure has to be right and for this kind of societal change is also the same. There are many factors. You mentioned those key points. Consumers needs to drive it. Consumers, they generated the demand. They will push design and manufacturing to start looking into faster, cleaner ways to meet the demand and the needs. So that really relies on new manufacturers building their new factories in very different ways from the traditional ones, and they need to adopt the latest tools. There are actually a lot of tools that's available for direct praying to to cut, automated cutting. Sewing is very difficult still, but there are machines that's made for specifically sowing certain types of curvature or three dimensional structures. That made it much easier for people to to sew Um. The labor shortage is another difficulty for especially developed countries. There are not many people who know how to do the Manu work anymore and people don't want to do it. Most people in the education system. They prefer to be creatives, they want to be designers. No one wants to go to the factory to do the many work anymore. So that will push new factories to come up with new ways to uh use machines that are easier for people to use and that would also then definitely become a threat for replacing Manu work. So there there will be workforce as affected by this automation, that...

AI shifts. So but then there will be more kinds of jobs generated that require more technical abilities and maybe even higher types of jobs, not the sweatshop menu repetitive work anymore, but more engineering oriented and technical, high level jobs that would become available. So we really need to provide people the education that they need and they deserve to do something that they prefer to do. So will be able to generate more decent work and provide people better environments to work. So there's a whole connected ecosystem. That was a beautifully put in such a thoughtful answer. Thank you. I love the physics, Um, physics, physics analogy that you came up with there at the beginning, and it's true there's many factors that play into it and I think you just broke them down so perfectly. I'm like, that's the end of the interview. MIC drop, she's but we'll just wrap it up with a couple more questions. Um, we want to get into just some kind of more fun questions here, and not that those weren't fun. Hopefully they were all fun Um. But what what's inspiring you these days? One Tech related thing that's inspiring you and one non tech related thing that you're getting inspiration from? Well, I'm not prepared. They're related inspirations. For me it's never really separate. For me it is always putting the A in stem, which is them. So I think that that's why my brand is called art by physicists. I get all kinds of inspiration from nature, from how the society behaves. So thank you for bringing that up. That was one of our questions that I sort of like cut out because I didn't know if we had time for. But this is a constant debate at a design lab. It doesn't have to be a debate. I'm trying to stop being so aggressive about it. But steam versus stem, like inside are you on? Not that they have to be mutually exclusive, but you brought it up, even unprompted, that the A is important. Can you tell us more about why you feel that is important in steam? So there are many factors to it. Art Is what makes people happy, is what builds culture and is also communication. So it works in if Heb at loop. If you start from the science and engineering, this super important. Is Critical for the development of society and hopefully we want to drive the application of techno oology to only be used for constructive instead of destructive applications. So imagine all these algorithms and technologies are built to replace a lot of the boring work and do more automation, building infrastructure, getting better healthcare and education systems. People will have more freedom and creativity to do intellectual work and make artworks. That that helps also communicate science and engineering. That makes a very positive feedback psycho for the society with without each of them feeding into each other helping each other. I think is very siloed. Is what actually creates the problems. Most of our society problems are caused by people not communicating. People are in their little worlds, they don't care about other people, they don't care to learn. I think that's what's really creating small and huge problems worldwide. Absolutely, I wanted to like just to laugh after each of your answers. There, you know, the issue of communication is so huge and, as you mentioned, you know even in your teaching strategies, being able to use a visual language to help bridge. You know that gap in communication or misunderstanding can be uh so advantageous. So I love how you're bringing that even into this larger question of you know, how art can kind of aid the more Um, the science and technology fields and vice versa, how they really are interconnected and feeding one another. Okay, so back to our our question. We're saying nature is one of the sort of non technology technological inspirations you have. And what would you say is their new program or...

...skill, Um, that's inspiring you when it comes to the technology side of things. It's kind of crazy. I've been playing with some AI generative tools Ai Art, like mid journey dotty. There's the new also stable diffusion. I haven't had a lot of time trying each of them yet these tools are really good. They are really getting to the level that most artists have to actually learn from them now because they look at all the possible all the different styles, whatever that's there, and it comes up with its own thing. So in a way some people may think that it's going to replace artists, but then we can learn so much from it too, and I feel like it can be much faster and even better of creating certain things than me, and I would be using it to create my own art. Uh, you still need the kind of the director to putting the prompt, but then you can then modify on top of what the Ai Thinks perceives your prompt. It's really interesting to think about this relationship between you and a machine or algorithm and just think much longer I've been developing my graphic novel and this is actually the main theme in there. I'm using it tools to make my graphic novel, but also you see that people are creating more and more advanced tools that hope to replace, uh, the Labor, the borrowing, repetitive work, so that people can do more creative and intellectual work. But at the end of the day you have everything taken care of by machines and Algorithms. And then you realize actually in nature has been there creating art all along, so even before humans ever existed. So it really makes you start to wonder what is nature? Is Nature Technology or is nature non tech? I don't think it's the letter. So it's the greatest technology. It's what so much of our technology is based off of. Right, yes, and so much of our artists inspired off. MM HMM. Yeah, I really appreciate what you're talking about when it comes to almost collaborating with these programs and machines. I think that's going to continue to be a huge topic. It already is on a lot of people's minds. All right, our our finale question is what is on your personal bill of materials? You can interpret this however you like. Yeah, it's a motivation, then it's the drive that I really want to apply my energy to the positive development of humankind, and that's been since ours a child, since I decided to do science. That's because I think it was a very direct way to make a positive impact on society. But, as as you learn, also noticed that technology can be applied in other ways that you don't want to see happen. So within our rooms of ability, we need to constantly pursue this positive application and also map what's needed by the world with our passion and our causes. So for me, uh, do you know the concept of Iki? Guy, this is the Japanese concept. I might have talked about this quite quite a bit in my past interview. I'm happy for you to explain it again. Go ahead. Yeah, so this is a Japanese concept about meaning of being is a vent diagram showing you that if you can align what you love to do, what the world needs, where you are good at and what you can be paid for, you can find Iki Guy. And that's been my personal bomb uh, as well as every project that I pursued to do, and I want, how I want the world, to evolve in such a direction. So I think at some point. So in terms of personal growth, is always about learning,...

...and at the beginning you may be just pursuing certain knowledge for yourself and but and then you started developing materials and products that can benefit a lot more people and at the end of the day, you are building a platform to support others to pursue their passions and missions. So that's the general ingredients in my bomb. wonderfully put, can you lead an a key Guy Workshop one day please? I would love to proticipate that, because I think you surely have found a way to bring you know, all your interests and passions together and have you know, a sustainable work life balance for yourself and keep moving the needle you know on how to have you know, a larger and larger impact on society and and bring positivity to everyone you know, that you speak to and share your work with. So I really appreciate the work you're doing and they you for sharing your your kind of your secret recipe, not so secret, secret recipe, with us. Public Recipe. Yeah, open source, that's what we're all about. That's right. Yeah, share, share the knowledge, all right. And last but not least, of course, please tell everyone where they can find your word, kitty, because it's so worthy of everyone checking it out. Thank you. So my brand is called act by physicists, and the U R L is just my name, KITTY YOUNG DOT com. Right now we're running a kickstarter, so definitely check it out for the new collection. Awesome. Can't wait to see all of the new designs. Thank you so much. We're back with another design lab debrief, where I'm joining with my colleagues. Do you have Bunny Selina's and Bruce Dominguez? Really excited to have talked to it Kitty Young for this this episode of the bomb. She is another one of our design lab favorites. We've had her as a guest at Hackaday Super Conference in the past. She always does amazing talks on everything from wearable tech to quantum computing, which is quite the range, I feel like, but also not that unusual for our audience and collaborators. Huh Right. She has a huge presence. I mean any one of our events you can always see her from down the hallway or getting everyone to try on her her latest design. Yeah, I was taking a look at some of her paintings and they are so nice. Yeah, and it was really interesting to hear her talk about a new kind of experimental version of her painting and drawing that she's doing, where she's collaborating with AI drawing programs and kind of putting her drawings in in certain parameters, seeing what it generates and then working from there. And she thinks it will, you know, be something that she continues to play around with moving forward, which I think is very interesting. It's great to talk with an artist who so open about using that kind of tech in that way and seeing it as an opportunity to try a new technique rather than I think something she even discussed was that a lot of artists feel almost maybe protective of like sticking with their they're more traditional technique, or this sort of thing like this might threaten that. That's very interesting. I've seen in my twitter timeline, both kind of designers, those that don't like Ai Generative Images, and those that love it. And yes, I've found a few that say oh, this, this, this, got all already. Let's move on. Yeah, totally nothing else to see here. But then I've seen some interesting concepts that designers feed these m AI image generation software with phrases like Bauhaus inspired stool, with a certain cartoon, and it gives them really interesting crossover. Yeah, even to think about as a I think if artists and designers and, you know, everyone or is more open to it being, uh, maybe a step in the process, like maybe this is used during the brainstorming phase, or maybe it's, you know, just as like a creative, uh generative tool rather than like, oh, your final product has to be produced by the computer or something like that. Like I like it as an idea, you know, for a step along the way, Um, and I think that it's cool that people are are seeing where that can go. What some would say is this is not setting any trends, it's just grabbing what's popular online and building on top of it, and so eventually we're going to get to no new concepts, the same popular designs and everything's going to look like a very beautiful apple product with a leather strap. That's what I equate those things too. Is like when Syrie first came out. Like everyone, you would spend the entire evenings...

...asking Sirie like the most random things and see what right. And so I guess we are people doing that now. It gets old at a certain point. Something else I thought was really interesting about my conversation with Kitty was discussing the opportunities with, uh, digital twin software within the fashion industry. So I was she was saying that she's using it Um to kind of expedite the customization process, to be able to make patterns and prototypes based off of, you know, she does everything kind of made to order, so based off of an individual size, customizations, you know, color preferences, whatever it is, and she can have these things, you know, rendered in her through digital twin and be able to work from there rather than having to actually produce a physical sample every time, maybe ship it, ship it back with feedback, this sort of thing. And I really loved how, again, she's focusing on the positive here and what how this really expedite the process, and I think that that's something that we see again. Sort of this people feel as more threatening, where really it's it's giving an opportunity for efficiency. Have you guys seen any interesting developments when it comes to wearables and kind of the use of digital twins software? I have not seen a lot with wearables, but what I've seen is with products and spaces. What happens is these this Um rendering engines like unity. They were created for video games, but they have so much processing power that people started using them. I think even the U S army uses them for some purposes, and now people use them for rendering a house products. But the cool thing is you render in real time. It's not like you created the video and you just create well, just quote unquote right. It's a lot of work, but you create a space and then you can go to that space and walk around and it just generates the images in real time, which, interestingly, it's what Siemens and Nvidia just partnered to do, which is you have a factory floor and you had some images that were interesting, or you have some renderings with certain quality, but now, within videous processing power and ability to work with light, walking through that virtual factory floor is going to look hyper realistic and it's I think it's very interesting. Yeah, I think it's going to have really awesome, you know, implications for training opportunities and for again, optimizing, optimizing manufacturing processes and workflow in all of these industries. So if if a factory floor, if it's possible to render in real time a factory floor, I think clothing and led is glowing and all that's going to be easier but also very fulfilling, very for cool to look at. Yeah, at least the most recent thing is I just finished reading a book by Annie Jacobsen called the Pentagon's brain, and she does all these like black project kind of uh, you know, black budget type of books and research, and one of the things is it's about Darpa and the concept was is that they were developing like Um m m o RPG type, uh, I don't want to say games, but training simulations for tank battalions and that's what you're going into the training. And instead of having tanks out in the fields, they had a giant warehouse filled with boxes of tank kind of like uh, set up so that you would get like sounds, like like effective sounds, from things rumbling around and they were doing this back in the eighties. So it's like wow, if you think about don't they always say they're like what do they say? Technology? And now that we're talking about something that's so advanced and it's coming to life, you know what's twenty years from now? What are we gonna be talking about twenty years? I was going to say, in response to what you were talking about, Geo is spaces. I've also seen a lot of the you know, the rendered spaces also being sold. Now people are like buying virtual real estate in these spaces, and I do wonder kind of what's the future of that? Yeah, and F T crazy three d modeled resorts and things like that. I'll be honest, I'm a little skeptical of where that goes. Like SEC but now it looks like I'm going to have to sign up an Avatar. I'm skeptical too, but the moment someone decides to get their own money and give it to someone else for a piece of digital, quote unquote, property, that's the moment when it comes to real...

...well, where people are doing that. Yeah, I won't tell you how old I am. I'll say that I played gears of war and I was there when people started buying the Golden Um Machine Gun. Oh my God, I was like why? I know, I'm like, the closest I got to that was club penguin outfits and and homemark. I'm like, I'm just gonna show the age gap here. But anyways, okay, I feel like we got to rein it back in to design lab here. We could go down that wormhole forever, Wormhole, Rabbit Hole, down that rabbit hole. But Um, as we mentioned, kitty has been one of our awesome hackaday Super Conference speakers in the past and of course I need to shout out that super con is back, coming back to design lab this November, and we've already really the tickets online. CHECK OUT HACKADAY Super Conference two on event right or just search it on Hackaday DOT COM to learn more. We're about to probably by the time this episode comes out, the volunteer form will be live and you can also participate as a volunteer. Uh, if you just want to be here and be able to enjoy some of the talks and also contribute to the Um all the operations that make it run smoothly. We would love to have your support. We have a lot of us and volunteers every year. Keep an eye out as we announce our speakers. We're just about to go through the speaker selection process, so that will be coming out soon as well and you can see get a preview of you you might be able to hear Um that's giving amazing talks like Kitty has given us in the past. So check all of that and more on Hackaday dot com or any of our social channels. And thanks again, Jim Bruce, for another riveting design lab de brief. If you like the bomb, don't forget to subscribe, rate and share the show wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow supply frame and Hack Day on Instagram, twitter, linkedin and Youtube, and design lab at supply frame. Design lab on Instagram and twitter. The bomb is a supply freme podcast, written, produced and edited by Frank Driscoll and Co edited by Daniel Ferrara. Executive Producers Are Ryan Tillotson and Tyler Nielsen. Theme Music is by Anna Hoggman, with show art by Thomas Schneider. Special thanks to Giovanni Selena's Bruce Dominguez, Thomas Woodward, Jin Kumar, Jordan Clark Matt Gunn. The entire supply freame team and you are wonderful listeners. I'm your host, Magenta, strongheart right.

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